Much as I hate to interrupt the misanthropic curmudgeonry around here
– and even I will confess that the major entertainment value of
races this season is trying to guess a) how Williams will screw up
this time, b) what lap Kimi will retire on, and c) who Klien will
plough into this time – I did think there was one event that I felt
worthy of comment.
I don’t know what anyone else felt, but I thought it was terrific that
as Ralf’s ambulance made its way down the pit straight, one saw the
(red-clad) crowd in the grandstands rise to their feet and give him a
standing ovation.
It goes to show (I hope) that for all the tabloid scandal-mongering
(and the bile that characterises the other place) that the average F1
fan in the street (or in the stands!) still has a decent sense of
sportsmanship – they know what we owe to ALL the drivers who risk life
and limb for our entertainment. If any of you were in the stands
yesterday, you did us proud – my God an Aussie saying something nice
about septic tanks, what’s the world coming to?
Sorry for the slightly purple prose, feel free to return to the ususal
service:
Cue four Yorkshireman "You call yon a grand prix?" "In my day, drivers
had to carry the car on their back for four hours and STILL managed to
pass 37 times a lap!"
Michael
On 21 Jun 2004 11:05:04 GMT, michael.ols…@uts.edu.au (Michael
Olsson) wrote:
>I don’t know what anyone else felt, but I thought it was terrific that
>as Ralf’s ambulance made its way down the pit straight, one saw the
>(red-clad) crowd in the grandstands rise to their feet and give him a
>standing ovation.
Yes, I was touched and impressed by that. And believe it would have
happened for any driver in any country… though as you say, some of
the folks in Another Place won’t want to believe anything of the sort.
;o))
—
([:]) by Kimbo! http://www.foca.co.uk
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? I am not a moderator.
note: hotmail address is a spam bin,
write to kim at foca_co_uk for a reply
Previously, Michael Olsson <michael.ols…@uts.edu.au> wrote
>It goes to show (I hope) that for all the tabloid scandal-mongering
>(and the bile that characterises the other place) that the average F1
>fan in the street (or in the stands!) still has a decent sense of
>sportsmanship
It’s something I’ve always enjoyed at race meetings – everyone is a
rival in the stands when the lights go out, but if the best man won,
everyone applauds. And genuine race fans always worry when an accident
occurs.
>Cue four Yorkshireman "You call yon a grand prix?" "In my day, drivers
>had to carry the car on their back for four hours and STILL managed to
>pass 37 times a lap!"
Have you been bugging my phone?
—
Stephen M Baines
Now with an extra 200m2… And soon two Bluebells
http://www.kitschcamppalace.org.uk/garden/400Lots/index.html
On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 01:57:30 CST, Stephen M Baines
<step…@the-samurai-in-autumn.motorsport.org.uk> wrote:
>It’s something I’ve always enjoyed at race meetings – everyone is a
>rival in the stands when the lights go out, but if the best man won,
>everyone applauds. And genuine race fans always worry when an accident
>occurs.
I agree. I was at the British Superbike meeting at Thruxton a couple
of weeks ago and the crowd was the most good-humoured I can ever
remember – they cheered the winners, of course, but also the guys who
slogged through the midfield, the guys who had the titanic race-long
battle for 23rd place, the guy who fell off and remounted, the guy who
came dead last (but still raced his socks off), and the marshalls who
dashed out after the pack had passed to retrieve a million bits of
debris from the track and had everything tidied away before the
leaders arrived again. Lovely!
But I have to say that the Thruxton medical arrangements made Sunday’s
F1 affair look stupid. When a rider fell, they had a doctor leering
down at him and the medical car moving before the dust had even
settled, and if there was any question of serious injury or risk to
doctors or marshalls, out came the red flag and stuff the TV
schedules.
Kim wasn’t the only one screaming at the TV while Ralf sat stranded,
alone and obviously in trouble, for an interminable time. I wouldn’t
want a repeat of the occasion where the medical car arrived before the
incident had been properly flagged and had its door taken off by a
still-racing car, but the delay on Sunday was totally unacceptable. If
the US insurance risk is so great that nobody can get to an injured
driver for several minutes, then they either have to red flag any
major incident immediately or not race in the US at all.
Add in the brilliant idea of making the pack drive through the debris
numerous times, and then black-flagging a start-line infringement
three-quarters of the way through the race – what is going on in F1
these days? Although if I were a conspiracy theorist, I would wonder
if the Montoya penalty delay was because Ferrari didn’t point it out
until he started getting close to the red cars
–
Pauline Ross
Pauline M Ross <pmr…@ross-software.co.uk> wrote:
> I agree. I was at the British Superbike meeting at Thruxton a couple
> of weeks ago and the crowd was the most good-humoured I can ever
> remember
Bikers really are a "tribe apart" though, enthusiasts all and there is a
sense of community that cuts across whatever team/rider they support.
pete
—
p…@fenelon.com "there’s no room for enigmas in built-up areas"
On 22 Jun 2004 14:25:01 GMT, Pete Fenelon <p…@fenelon.com> wrote:
>Pauline M Ross <pmr…@ross-software.co.uk> wrote:
>> I agree. I was at the British Superbike meeting at Thruxton a couple
>> of weeks ago and the crowd was the most good-humoured I can ever
>> remember
>Bikers really are a "tribe apart" though, enthusiasts all and there is a
>sense of community that cuts across whatever team/rider they support.
I’m not sure that’s signficantly different to the atmosphere /
community in any club level motorsport.
—
([:]) by Kimbo! http://www.foca.co.uk
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? I am not a moderator.
note: hotmail address is a spam bin,
write to kim at foca_co_uk for a reply
Kim Andrews <some…@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>Bikers really are a "tribe apart" though, enthusiasts all and there is a
>>sense of community that cuts across whatever team/rider they support.
> I’m not sure that’s signficantly different to the atmosphere /
> community in any club level motorsport.
> —
Indeed, the difference being that as far as I understand it it’s like
that at all motorcycle events right up to GP level.
Actually, for the most part it’s true of international motor racing too,
it seems that only when things aren’t face-to-face that virulence takes
root (as in the Other Place…)
pete
—
p…@fenelon.com "there’s no room for enigmas in built-up areas"
You may have found the answer to the 57 lap mystery!
"Pauline M Ross" <pmr…@ross-software.co.uk> wrote in message
news:kdbgd0l8vn4isjlseuvaepcjqae4oahgqo@4ax.com…
> Kim wasn’t the only one screaming at the TV while Ralf sat stranded,
> alone and obviously in trouble, for an interminable time. I wouldn’t
> want a repeat of the occasion where the medical car arrived before
the
> incident had been properly flagged and had its door taken off by a
> still-racing car, but the delay on Sunday was totally unacceptable.
As a US fan I feel the need to step in here and say that I was also
yelling at the screen. I’ve been to many NASCAR and CART/IRL races
over the years and I’ve NEVER seen it take that long to get to the
wreck. It’s been my experience several times that the rescue trucks
are moving before the wrecked car stops. I consider the amount of time
it took to get to Ralf totally unacceptable (not that I could do
anything about it, of course…).
For what it’s worth I was under the impression that the FIA provides
their own first responders. The people that responded were clearly not
the IMS safety crews.
And why weren’t there other medical people staged at various spots
around the track?
Watch a US oval track race. You’ll notice that there are at least
three, perhaps as many as six locations around the track where a fire
truck, a rescue vehicle and an ambulance are parked. All so that they
can get there as soon as possible.
The other thing that was just plain stupid was the cleanup:
1) Why did the safety car take the pack through the wreck scene when
it could have taken them down the pit lane?
2) Has no one in the FIA heard of the jet blower? One pass down the
front straight and the carbon fiber would be all up against the wall,
where it could be picked up with brooms and shovels (just like at
CART/IRL races, you know…). Having people on their hands and knees
picking up shards was just plain silly.
> Add in the brilliant idea of making the pack drive through the
debris
> numerous times, and then black-flagging a start-line infringement
> three-quarters of the way through the race – what is going on in F1
> these days?
Personally, I thought that the race director was either an amateur or
having an off day. Since it was Charlie Whiting, I’ll assume he was
having an off day.
-
Jim
On 22 Jun 2004 16:25:02 GMT, rmelvina…@aol.com (Rmelvinactg) wrote:
>You may have found the answer to the 57 lap mystery!
Who may have found the answer to what mystery?
David Betts (dav…@motorsport.org.uk)
"In the end it’s always a matter of more accelerator and less brake" – Frank Gardner
British Racing Green: http://dbetts.motorsport.org.uk/brg
From: "James Nowotarski" <j…@MAPSON.att.net>
> 2) Has no one in the FIA heard of the jet blower? One pass down the
> front straight and the carbon fiber would be all up against the wall,
Are you suggesting that they blow razor-sharp shards of carbon fibre towards
the crowd?
Paul
On 23 Jun 2004 06:40:08 GMT, "James Nowotarski" <j…@MAPSON.att.net>
wrote:
>For what it’s worth I was under the impression that the FIA provides
>their own first responders. The people that responded were clearly not
>the IMS safety crews.
Absolutely, the primary safety / medical team is under Sid Watkins,
and is a permanent fixture of the F1 circus. At what level this is
devolved to local talent and coordinated, I’m not sure. When somebody
did finally get there, it was Sid and his team… so what caused the
delay I have no idea. If anybody sees anything to explain it, I hope
they’ll post it here. At the moment we don’t know enought to point
the finger at any individual, team or country.
—
([:]) by Kimbo! http://www.foca.co.uk
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? I am not a moderator.
note: hotmail address is a spam bin,
write to kim at foca_co_uk for a reply
David Betts <dav…@motorsport.org.uk> wrote:
>On 22 Jun 2004 16:25:02 GMT, rmelvina…@aol.com (Rmelvinactg) wrote:
>>You may have found the answer to the 57 lap mystery!
>Who may have found the answer to what mystery?
A racing version of Agatha Christie?
–
Emma – The Chocolate Monster
ChocMonsterLand is back @ http://www.chocmonster.rules.it
On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 03:40:22 CST, "Paul Harman"
<chatter…@doctorwhowebguide.net> wrote:
>From: "Kim Andrews" <some…@hotmail.com>
>> Absolutely, the primary safety / medical team is under Sid Watkins,
>> and is a permanent fixture of the F1 circus. At what level this is
>> devolved to local talent and coordinated, I’m not sure. When somebody
>> did finally get there, it was Sid and his team… so what caused the
>> delay I have no idea. If anybody sees anything to explain it, I hope
>> they’ll post it here. At the moment we don’t know enought to point
>> the finger at any individual, team or country.
>Perhaps the safety car (containing Sid et al) was parked at the end of the
>pit lane, and had to do a full tour of the circuit before arriving at the
>accident? With the F1 cars on track, it could hardly drive the wrong way up
>the straight (or the pit lane) towards the scene.
I’m sure that’s the reason, yes. Standard F1 procedure is to scramble
the medical crew from the end of the pit lane. In this instance there
were cars passing for a brief period – the ones which were behind Ralf
when he crashed – then the full course yellow was declared and the
pace car would be in position to pick up the leader and protect the
rear of the medical vehicles proceeding to the crash.
>All the more reason to throw a red.
Don’t really see that a red would have made any immediate difference.
It couldn’t have been declared any quicker than the yellow and the
cars passing the end of the pit lane immediately after the accident
would still have been travelling very rapidly.
The difference at most F1 venues is that the trackside rescue team
would have poured out of the holes in the fence like rabbits and the
on-scene doctor would probably have had a drip set up by the time Sid
got there.
In the US, to combat their insurance problems, they have intervention
vehicles at several points around the course which are scrambled to an
accident scene as soon as the full course yellow has been established.
Seems likely F1 will have to do the same, at least for the banked
corners at Indy.
Big drawback of the US system, of course, is that they have to throw
full course yellows for every minor incident. Fine and necessary on
ovals – a constant irritation on road courses.
David Betts (dav…@motorsport.org.uk)
"In the end it’s always a matter of more accelerator and less brake" – Frank Gardner
British Racing Green: http://dbetts.motorsport.org.uk/brg
From: "David Betts" <dav…@motorsport.org.uk>
> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 03:40:22 CST, "Paul Harman"
> <chatter…@doctorwhowebguide.net> wrote:
> >All the more reason to throw a red.
> Don’t really see that a red would have made any immediate difference.
> It couldn’t have been declared any quicker than the yellow and the
> cars passing the end of the pit lane immediately after the accident
> would still have been travelling very rapidly.
Hmm. Am I right in thinking that the red flag means "Track blocked, stop
immediately where you are" ?
If so, then the medical car driver need simply check for slowing cars and
then drive backwards up the main straight [knowing it won't meet oncoming F1
cars, which have stopped for the red], rather than tiptoe between them all
the way round the circuit.
That does of course assume that drivers are paying attention to the flags
[cf Alonso in Brazil last year], which is probably risky enough that they
don’t do what I suggest. Forget I spoke };*)
Paul
On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 06:20:25 CST, "Paul Harman"
<chatter…@doctorwhowebguide.net> wrote:
>Hmm. Am I right in thinking that the red flag means "Track blocked, stop
>immediately where you are" ?
Race (or practice or whatever) stopped, slowly return to pits. Which,
of course, would actually mean it took them even longer to get round!
But I still think a red flag was justified, it was needing the track
to clear before medical help arrived that was the problem.
—
([:]) by Kimbo! http://www.foca.co.uk
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? I am not a moderator.
note: hotmail address is a spam bin,
write to kim at foca_co_uk for a reply
The lady had stated that maybe the reason it took 57 laps to black-flag Montoya
was that it took awhile for Ferrari to come up with the idea to protest the car
changing at the start.
"Paul Harman" <chatter…@doctorwhowebguide.net> wrote in message
news:289901c45913$2f614110$ca68b290@panews.press.net…
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> From: "David Betts" <dav…@motorsport.org.uk>
> > On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 03:40:22 CST, "Paul Harman"
> > <chatter…@doctorwhowebguide.net> wrote:
> > >All the more reason to throw a red.
> > Don’t really see that a red would have made any immediate
difference.
> > It couldn’t have been declared any quicker than the yellow and the
> > cars passing the end of the pit lane immediately after the
accident
> > would still have been travelling very rapidly.
> Hmm. Am I right in thinking that the red flag means "Track blocked,
stop
> immediately where you are" ?
> If so, then the medical car driver need simply check for slowing
cars and
> then drive backwards up the main straight [knowing it won't meet
oncoming F1
> cars, which have stopped for the red], rather than tiptoe between
them all
> the way round the circuit.
Bad juju. Never, NEVER, run safety vehicles against the direction of
traffic until the race is stopped and you have positive confirmation
(like stopping all the remaining cars on the back stretch, etc, and
then counting). Really bad accident in the pits at Indy in the late
60′s due to that. Murphy’s law says somebody will fail to get the
word.
-
Jim
"Paul Harman" <chatter…@doctorwhowebguide.net> wrote in message
news:257501c458f8$b86a3b80$ca68b290@panews.press.net…
> From: "James Nowotarski" <j…@MAPSON.att.net>
> > 2) Has no one in the FIA heard of the jet blower? One pass down
the
> > front straight and the carbon fiber would be all up against the
wall,
> Are you suggesting that they blow razor-sharp shards of carbon fibre
towards
> the crowd?
Hell yes!
This is Indianapolis, after all. If the people in the front rows
aren’t sprayed with flaming methanol, they feel like they’re not
getting they’re money’s worth!
Seriously, I see your point. I have only to offer that I have been at
Nazareth Speedway in the front seats (1 mile oval) when CART ran
there. In several instances cars wrecked with debris over the front
straight and the blower blew the stuff into the retaining wall, where
it was swept up either by men with brooms or the track sweeper.
Your mileage may vary, of course. I would think based on what I saw at
Nazareth that the debris would skitter across the racing surface and
not get airborne, but I really don’t know.
They did end up using the track sweeper at Indy, didn’t they?
Which seems like the best approach.
–
Jim
Bu
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
David Betts wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 03:40:22 CST, "Paul Harman"
> <chatter…@doctorwhowebguide.net> wrote:
>> From: "Kim Andrews" <some…@hotmail.com>
>>> Absolutely, the primary safety / medical team is under Sid Watkins,
>>> and is a permanent fixture of the F1 circus. At what level this is
>>> devolved to local talent and coordinated, I’m not sure. When
>>> somebody did finally get there, it was Sid and his team… so what
>>> caused the delay I have no idea. If anybody sees anything to
>>> explain it, I hope they’ll post it here. At the moment we don’t
>>> know enought to point the finger at any individual, team or country.
>> Perhaps the safety car (containing Sid et al) was parked at the end
>> of the pit lane, and had to do a full tour of the circuit before
>> arriving at the accident? With the F1 cars on track, it could hardly
>> drive the wrong way up the straight (or the pit lane) towards the
>> scene.
> I’m sure that’s the reason, yes. Standard F1 procedure is to scramble
> the medical crew from the end of the pit lane. In this instance there
> were cars passing for a brief period – the ones which were behind Ralf
> when he crashed – then the full course yellow was declared and the
> pace car would be in position to pick up the leader and protect the
> rear of the medical vehicles proceeding to the crash.
>> All the more reason to throw a red.
> Don’t really see that a red would have made any immediate difference.
> It couldn’t have been declared any quicker than the yellow and the
> cars passing the end of the pit lane immediately after the accident
> would still have been travelling very rapidly.
It would have been safe within seconds for help to proceed on to the track.
As it was after the SC was declared cars still passed the pit entry and
proceeded onto the straight passing the wreckage unnecessarily before being
picked up by the safety car. It was not safe for help to go onto the track
at this time. If a red had been declared these cars would have entered the
pits and been of no danger. It would have been safe for marshalls to be on
the track some sixty seconds earlier at a guess.
On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 06:20:25 CST, "Paul Harman"
<chatter…@doctorwhowebguide.net> wrote:
>From: "David Betts" <dav…@motorsport.org.uk>
>> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 03:40:22 CST, "Paul Harman"
>> <chatter…@doctorwhowebguide.net> wrote:
>> >All the more reason to throw a red.
>> Don’t really see that a red would have made any immediate difference.
>> It couldn’t have been declared any quicker than the yellow and the
>> cars passing the end of the pit lane immediately after the accident
>> would still have been travelling very rapidly.
>Hmm. Am I right in thinking that the red flag means "Track blocked, stop
>immediately where you are" ?
Nope. It means stop at the start-finish line ie round the track, past
the accident. Wouldn’t have made any difference atall.
>If so, then the medical car driver need simply check for slowing cars and
>then drive backwards up the main straight [knowing it won't meet oncoming F1
>cars, which have stopped for the red], rather than tiptoe between them all
>the way round the circuit.
FIA has confirmed response was within the two-minute window required
by the regs. I know it seemed like a long time, but it wasn’t really.
David Betts (dav…@motorsport.org.uk)
"In the end it’s always a matter of more accelerator and less brake" – Frank Gardner
British Racing Green: http://dbetts.motorsport.org.uk/brg
David Betts <dav…@motorsport.org.uk> wrote:
> Then along came Jenson who basically out-drove him last year, plus BAR
> had an option on the brilliant young Japanese driver Sato. Takuma is
> obviously liked by Honda, is relatively cheap, plus he is a developing
> talent whom Richards can mould to fit his emerging super-team.
More to the point, Sato is immensely marketable in Japan. He’s
taken to over-driving at times this year, I think, as well as suffering
bad luck, but he is clearly, and by some distance, the best Japanese
driver we’ve seen in F1 yet — it’s a pity we never properly saw the likes
of Hoshino or Hasemi (who at least did Japanese GPs) or the late Hitoshi
Ogawa in F1…)
> So, only back of the grid teams available and he would almost
> certainly have had to bring money. There was some dickering with
> Jordan, I believe, but it was never going to happen.
I don’t think Villeneuve would’ve voluntarily gone to a shambolic outfit
like Jordan, not after the first year of BAR.
> As for 2005, there is a window of opportunity. Obviously he would
> still be a big gamble, but Williams needs someone alongside Mark
> Webber and might just decide to go for experience. They will test
> Jacques, who says he is fighting fit and raring to go. He will have to
> be very quick, however, to overcome all the lingering doubts.
I think had Patrick Head still been attending the races there would’ve
been Noooo Waaaaay that JV could get back into the team. As it is, with
Sam Michael in charge – maybe – but Williams will have to try to poach
Jock Clear, I reckon.
> Sad, but I wouldn’t hold your breath.
JV made his own bed – in exactly the same way that 20-odd years before
Fittipaldi made his. Both of them are great drivers. Both threw their
careers away far too young. But racing’s all about judgement.
pete
—
p…@fenelon.com "how many clever men have called the sun a fool?"